JIM LEHRER: Now to the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Zalman Shoval. Mr. Ambassador, welcome.

ZALMAN SHOVAL (Israeli ambassador to the U.S.): Hello.

LEHRER: Do you agree this is a public relations disaster for your country of the first order?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: I've heard that phrase so many times in these two years, I'm immune to it. Yes, there's a lot of misunderstanding in the beginning, some of it I think on purpose. People have to understand what we have to cope with. We have to cope with a fundamentalist terrorist organization which is out to destroy the state of Israel, to kill Jews because they're Jews, by the way also to kill any other Western influence if they can get their hands on it. This is a problem, this is a dilemma, which democratic societies face when they have to cope with people who want to destroy them. The Weimar Republic didn't know how to cope with Nazis, and they suffered from that. The German government now is trying to cope with the neo-Nazis, I hope in a more effective way.

The Islamic fundamentalists--the Hamas, the Islamic Jihad--these organizations, they don't fight Israel because of the territory or because of occupation, so to say; they want to destroy Israel. They say so openly. Israel has to take certain measures which are not always very delicate, not always very palatable to us, to the Israeli society, which is an open society, which is a free society.

But how do you fight these things? You don't fight these things with niceties.

LEHRER: A lot of the questions that have been raised here, as you know, Mr. Ambassador, because you're here--you've read them and you've heard them--is that Israel is a democratic society; if these 415 men have committed crimes, why are they not just put on trial rather than picked up in the middle of the night and sent out of the country?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Because these people are the infrastructure, they're the people who direct the activities. They are not necessarily the people who stab Jews and Israelis or throw hand grenades; they are the organizational infrastructure of this organization.

Now, it may be very difficult to put them in prison without putting them on trial, or to put them on trial and to find something which says you have committed a crime yesterday. They are the people who plan the operations.

Now, what did we do? They had due process; they were sent abroad to another Arab country. They have the right to appeal again within 60 days, and even at the maximum they will only be there for up to two years, which I think is a lot more humane than some countries I won't mention, even democratic countries, who execute terrorists of that sort, or put them in concentration camps, or banish them--

LEHRER: (Inaudible.)

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, I think they are. I don't want to mention names. You know, some in the countries surrounding us today which face the same sort of threat we do, well, things are going on--I don't want to mention names. But there are some very decisive names going on in countries in the Middle East who realize how dangerous this Muslim fundamentalism--planned, financed, armed by Iran and by Sudan-- really is to the whole existence. Instead of blaming us--the government of Lebanon, for instance--we should form an alliance of states to fight Muslim fundamentalism which is a scourge for all of us and a danger to all of us.

LEHRER: What obligation does Lebanon have to take these people? What was the Israeli government's thinking in sending them to Lebanon? These people are not from Lebanon.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, they're not from Lebanon. Of course, Lebanon is an Arab country just like the rest, and we have sent people of that sort before to Lebanon; they were usually accepted there. But let's go beyond that. I understand that the Lebanese officials, and I'm sure that the Lebanese ambassador is going to say Lebanon is not a dumping ground for terrorists, or whatever. I'm sure that they must have said that with their tongue very firmly in their cheek.

Lebanon, unfortunately, is a convention center almost for terrorist organizations. The whole of southern Lebanon is an area for the Hizbullah, which is another fundamentalist organization attacking Israel. They don't do anything about that. So to talk now about sovereignty--I wish there were a sovereign country which could really control its territory. All we have done is sent 415 people to their Arab brethren who are willing, I think, to receive them, although the government of Lebanon says not.

LEHRER: What happens as a practical matter now, Mr. Ambassador? The government of Lebanon has not only said they won't receive them, but today has said they will no longer permit these 415 men to receive food, water, and other humanitarian aid. And what happens? Does Israel feel it has no further responsibility?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, these people are in Lebanon, they are not in no-man's land, they are in Lebanon proper. That was what the Israeli supreme court today had to deliberate: Are they in sovereign Lebanon or are they not?

LEHRER: The reason it's called no-man's land--it's technically Lebanon but it's under control or has been under control of militia that are very sympathetic to Israel.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: No, not this part, this is north of the security area. They are in Lebanon proper. It's up to the Lebanese government or the Arab humanitarian organizations to decide what to do about that?

LEHRER: So it's no longer Israel's problem.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: It is Israel's problem, of course it is a problem, we realize it's a problem. But it is not Israel's solution; we can't solve that problem.

LEHRER: Secretary of State Eagleburger was on this program last night and he made the comment about the Israelis are people who are concerned with civil rights and treating people humanely and thus, I quote--this is Eagleburger: "I can't believe that they could look at these people out there in the middle of nowhere, with nowhere to go, and be shot at from all directions, and believe in the long run that this is the way to solve the problem. I cannot believe that the Israelis in the long run will be able to sustain this."

Is the secretary wrong?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: He may be right, because we are a free and open society. But we always have to think twice. What do we give vent to, our basic humanitarian feelings--and we are a democratic society, as Secretary Eagleburger said--or our sense of self-preservation? We are a small people, a small country, facing forces with absolutely no consideration for due process of law, for morality, for human rights. They want to destroy us. And we have to find a middle way. Other countries in our position would have imposed the death sentence long ago-- there's no doubt about that. We try to find a middle way. Everybody may not accept that. It creates problems, public relations problems, problems with good friends like Secretary Eagleburger of the United States--and I want to praise the United States in trying to contain the all-out assault on Israel at the United Nations.

Nobody at the Security Council even mentioned the provocation which we have had. The Israeli policeman who was brutally murdered, stabbed to death--he had nothing to do with territories, occupation, anything like that.

LEHRER: And there are five others who were killed.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: And five others. But, look, we were condemned before at the U.N. Eleven years ago we were condemned 15 to nil for bombing the Iraqi nuclear reactor--now everybody thanks us. I think less than 11 years will pass before everybody thanks us for fighting Islamic fundamentalism, which is one of the great dangers to the free world in the future.

LEHRER: I asked Secretary Eagleburger last night if he thought there would be a quick solution to this.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: He said no.

LEHRER: He said no. Would you agree with him about that?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, I would agree with him. But the best solution for this problem and for similar problems is if the rational pragmatic Palestinian leadership, the people with whom I sit, we sit, in the negotiating room would finally come home and say to the Palestinian constituency: look, the only solution is in negotiating with Israel, in finding some sort of peaceful modus vivendi; all the rest is only going to hurt the Israelis, but also you, the Palestinians. They should encourage the Palestinians to turn away from extremism and towards negotiations with Israel. That's the solution.

LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.

JIM LEHRER: Now we go to the Lebanese ambassador to the United States, Simon Karam. Mr. Ambassador, welcome to you, sir.

SIMON KARAM (Lebanese ambassador to the U.S.): Thank you.

LEHRER: Do you agree that this problem is now a Lebanese problem, as the supreme court of Israel said today.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, from the very beginning it was an Israeli problem, it remains an Israeli problem. And the Israelis should try to find a solution to this problem themselves.

LEHRER: But the Israeli ambassador is correct, is he not, that these 415 men are now in fact on land of Lebanon?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: The Israelis have dumped these people on Lebanese territory; they have dumped them on a territory that is under the fire of their gun, and they keep shooting on them. The only solution of this problem is to take them back, as was suggested yesterday by Secretary Eagleburger.

LEHRER: Why is it that your country will not accept these 415 men?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Because this will put an unjust burden on our security and on our process of recovery. We just cannot be a dumping ground for the Israelis, and we cannot accept to take any people that the Israelis think they should dump in Lebanon.

LEHRER: Do you see these people as terrorists?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't see them as terrorists. The fact is they were not given the chance to stand before a tribunal. They were just taken in the dead of the night from their beds; they were put on buses, and they were just dumped in Lebanon.

LEHRER: Do you see them as Arab brothers?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: They are Arab brothers for us, but the fact is that we cannot found a solution for the Israelis on this issue.

LEHRER: Why not?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Because it will be a threat to our security.

LEHRER: Because of what these 415 men might do in Lebanon once they got there?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't know what they might do, but we can see that this situation will be very detrimental to our recovery process.

LEHRER: You heard what Ambassador Shoval said, that your country is a kind of convention center now for various terrorist organizations, including other Islamic fundamentalist groups--he mentioned Hizbullah. This group that he's talking about, these 415 men, are allegedly members of Hamas. Do you agree with him, is he right about that?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Lebanon went into some very difficult problem for awhile. We are in the midst of a recovery now. We have a strong central government. We have a reliable army. We are trying to do our best to control our internal situation. And we think that the Israelis in dumping people in our country are harming this security situation very much.

LEHRER: So in other words if you had some terrorists already there, what you're saying is you don't need any more from Israel.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Excuse me?

LEHRER: If what the ambassador from Israel says is true, that you already have some terrorist type people in your country, you certainly don't need any more, is that what you're essentially saying, sir?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: No, I am not trying to say that we have terrorists in our country. We have people that are fighting Israeli occupation of Lebanon in south Lebanon, we have people that are opposing the fact that Israel since more than 15 years now occupies all of the south of Lebanon.

LEHRER: Now, the decision of your government today to deny these 415 men humanitarian aid, what are the ramifications of that down the road?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We didn't deny humanitarian aid to them. We have just restricted access to them to the International Red Cross. The International Red Cross will be able to reach them from certain passes that are in Lebanon.

LEHRER: So they will still be able to be fed. And I read a report today that fresh water was almost gone, and all of that. You're saying your government is not going to deny these people food and water, is that right?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: The access of welfare to them was restricted to the International Red Cross. We think that the International Red Cross can handle this situation properly.

LEHRER: Where do you see this thing going from here? I mean, these men are going to stay there. You have said--you meaning your government has said that it's Israel's problem, Israel said, no, it's Lebanon's problem. You heard what the ambassador said: the solution now must be found in Lebanon. You've just said, no, the solution has to be found in Israel. What's going to happen, sir?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, the simplest solution is for the Israelis to take them back, as was said yesterday by Secretary Eagleburger. We think that this is a moral burden on them, this is a moral Israeli responsibility. As far as we are concerned, we stand on very firm moral ground, we stand on very firm political ground, and legally our position is very solid.

LEHRER: Do you have any sympathy for the Israeli position as expressed by Mr. Shoval just now and by the Israeli prime minister in the last few days, that these 415 men are dedicated to the destruction of their country, to the destruction of Israel, and that's why they had to act? Does that arouse in any sympathy in you and your fellow Lebanese?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't want to hurt the Israelis ourselves. The fact is that our country is still largely under Israeli occupation. As far as these people, they were not even given the chance to stand before a tribunal, whether in Israel or elsewhere. They were just taken out of their bed, they were put in buses, blindfolded, and dropped in Lebanon without being convicted and without a sentence being issued on them.

LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, as I spoke to Ambassador Shoval about this, and about the public relations problem that this has developed for Israel, is there a potential for this turning around and becoming also a public relations problem for Lebanon, that these men sit in your country and are not well-fed and all of that? Is there a potential for this thing to turn around and bite you all as well as it is Israel?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, I think that this is not a public relations issue; it is a moral issue where the Israelis are in full responsibility for finding a solution for this situation.

LEHRER: Lebanon has no responsibility.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't think we have.

LEHRER: All right, Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.