MR. LEHRER: After the News Summary we will examine the reported killing of Col. Higgins in Lebanon with Senators Richard Lugar and Christopher Dodd, anti-terrorism experts Noel Koch and Paul Bremer and the Israeli Ambassador to the United States Moshe Arad. We close with a Roger Mudd report on the Florida race to replace Claude Pepper in Congress.

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MR. LEHRER: Now some Official Israeli reaction to the American comments about and criticism of Israel's kidnapping action [of Sheik Obeid]. It comes from Moshe Arad, Israel's Ambassador to the United States. Mr. Ambassador is your Government having any second thoughts tonight about the kidnapping.

MOSHE ARAD, Ambassador of Israel to the U.S.: I wouldn't think so. The fact is that I would reasonably argue the characterization of the abduction of Sheikh Obeid as kidnapping. I think once we realized and we got information about the presence of this Sheikh who has been involved in planning and conducting terrorist actions against Israelis and indeed we know now as a result of the investigation of Sheikh Obeid that he was also active in planning and the kidnapping of Colonel Higgins. All this indicates that Israel had the legitimate policy, in a policy of hot pursuit that once it realized that over the border not to far in an area which is not controlled by the Lebanese Government or by any other Government which is virtually a land where terror is reining. It has the capacity and the responsibility and indeed according to International Law it has even the right in hot pursuit to go and grab this man and bring him to Israel in order to find out what he knows about it and to find out whether it is possible following this investigation to come to terms and to bring about the release of the hostages.

MR. LEHRER: So that was the purpose then. The purpose was to bring him to Israel and then make a deal for the release of Israeli and Western hostages?

AMB. ARAD: Right the purpose is to indicate our determination that we are continuing to fight against terror by all the means available to us. Those perpetrators and leaders of terrorist organization should not feel safe where ever they are and if our hand and we can reach to them and we can apprehend them and to bring them to justice or in necessary that they will be part of an offer which was made this morning by the Minister of Defense of Israel for a swap between the Israel hostages and the Americans and foreign hostages.

MR. LEHRER: So that was the point of the exercise?

AMB. ARAD: One of the points of the exercise.

MR. LEHRER: Was the United States consulted before this operation was mounted?

AMB. ARAD: I don't think so. To the best of my knowledge this was an independent Israeli action.

MR. LEHRER: Why not? Why was not the United States consulted when you said yourself that you knew that this guy had taken Higgins and you were going to try to swap for the hostages?

AMB. ARAD: Well let me clarify. We are on the for front of the struggle against terrorism. We are not alone, I hope that we are not alone, because unless the free world and especially the United States and I think there is also this perception of a necessity to confront violence and confront terrorism. Unless we will take action against the perpetrators and we live in this neighborhood and we live next door to this area of South Lebanon no one will take it. So I think we that we find ourselves as being in the forefront against the fight on terrorism and we are not going to in advance to consult about each action that we are going to take in this fight.

MR. LEHRER: But as Senator Dole said you risked the lives of 9 Americans. Doesn't the United States at least have the right to know that you are going to do that.

AMB. ARAD: Let me clarify where I would like to take a point and I can not agree with Senator Dole. The fact is that the lives of Americans have been endangered and indeed assassinated by terrorists long before this action. The announcement of the assassination of Colonel Higgins was made several months ago, Other Americans were killed in incidents in which were perpetrated by the same group. If you look back you will find that the numbers are in the hundreds. And to suggest now that it is because of Israeli action that the death of Colonel Higgins came about and then we still don't know that this statement is a true statement. No one has been able to check this information and let's not forget that part of the campaign by this organization is disinformation and to draw a wedge between Israel and the United States.

MR. LEHRER: What happens now I mean you continue to hold the Sheikh and let's say the terrorists continue to kill Americans and Israelis and others what happens you just keep holding the guy?

AMB. ARAD: Even before the reports about the alleged assassination on Colonel Higgins were made public and let me say immediately that if these reports are correct we are all very shocked, we are very saddened and I would like to indicate here that of course the Israeli Government and Israeli people feel a deep sense of identification with the family and with the American people but the offer was made even before this news came out and we feel that by a mixture of a determined policy to fight against Terrorism by unorthodox means and at the same time to indicate that willingness to save human lives and in a way this is what the Israeli offer is all about to try to save the lives of those hostages where ever they are whether they are the in Shiite hands or in the hands of a different organization. And so much of this area is also being controlled to a very significant extent by the Syrian forces and we didn't hear one word from Damascus actually condemning this killing or a willingness to take action in order to assure that such action will not be perpetrated.

MR. LEHRER: Thank you. Robin.

MR. MACNEIL: Sen. Lugar, President Bush has criticized over the weekend the Israeli abduction of Sheikh Obeid. Should the United States now join in Israel's offer for swap, or should it disown it?

SEN. LUGAR: I think we ought to cooperate with Israel.

MR. MACNEIL: Openly?

SEN. LUGAR: Yes. I think that the offer is a generous one and as the Israeli Ambassador has pointed out a humanitarian one.

MR. MACNEIL: How do you feel about that, Sen. Dodd?

SEN. DODD: I agree with that. I think at this point there's nothing savory about that. I think the possibility of ending up with some sort of a swap or negotiation ought to be at least on the table. I wouldn't want to look at the specifics of it, but I wouldn't exclude it. I think your question was would you be opposed to it, and I wouldn't be opposed to it.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Koch, how do you feel?

NOEL KOCH, Former Pentagon Official: I think the President probably ought to divorce himself very forcefully from the Israeli action. I think that's one of the things that may have a salutory effect on the remainder of our hostages.

MR. MACNEIL: Just spell that out. In other words, if the President said, I'm no part of this, that might prevent the execution of more hostages?

MR. KOCH: I don't think that we have too many other options. Let me point out that we have disproportionate leverage here. As the ambassador earlier pointed out, they've taken Sheikh Obeid, and in exchange for the American hostages as a result has been at least one dead American hostage. We don't have a dead Sheikh and we're not apt to have because Israel doesn't have capital punishment, so the leverage that they can exert at this thing is much less than the aggrieved parties can exert and we're in the middle of it.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Bremer, President Bush should firmly disassociate himself for the reason he just gave.

AMB. L. PAUL BREMER, Former State Department Official: Well, I can understand his point of view. I don't agree with his conclusion. It seems to that particularly if we're looking at the Iranians who are behind Hezbollah, we've heard a lot over the years about moderate Iranians. You mentioned the new Iranian President. If, indeed, Iran wants better relations with the West, then the new president ought to at a minimum see what he can do to get these hostages released and stop his new minister of interior from calling for the death of more Americans and Israelis as he did today.

MR. MACNEIL: Sen. Lugar, how do you respond to what Mr. Koch said, there may be a way to save the rest of the Americans by disassociating the President from this?

SEN. LUGAR: I cannot remember the President of the United States taking that course of action. The President has already indicated his sense of outrage and that of our nation. The President must deal with the other nations of the world to bring about a civilized situation. I would say with regard to the leverage, the leverage that we might exert in various ways is very considerable, and to keep laying this off on the Israeli kidnapping, its to me, misses the whole point. On occasion, I would point out that we have been involved in trying to bring persons to justice, specifically a drug dealer from Honduras that we captured with regard to the Komerena cases. Now from time to time these bold actions are required and this may be one of these.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Ambassador, what would you feel about the success of the seizure, arrest, abduction of Sheikh Obeid if one by one, more hostages, American or other British perhaps are executed?

AMB. ARAD: I feel that we have to indicate our determination not to give into blackmail. There are ways to clarify this message or to convey this message because, after all, these people, even if they have no scruples have to understand or will understand that Israel has the capacity to make real the threat of conducting actions against those responsible and this threat is not an empty one, and we have -- unless we stick together and unless the free world is supporting Israel and especially the United States supports Israel in its actions against terrorism, that will be the first success of those terrorists, because we can succeed in this fight against terrorism only if we carry on united, coordinated efforts. And if they will separate us from the United States and from the other countries of the free world which also have a very paramount interest in fighting terrorism, this will be the first step in succeeding and carrying out further acts and then no American, whether he's today a hostage or a free man, whatever he is, can also be safe and this is true also about Israelis.

MR. MACNEIL: How do you respond to that argument, Mr. Koch?

MR. KOCH: I don't think it's beyond the capacities of our diplomacy to find a strong way to maintain a strong relationship with Israel and yet not be in a position in which Americans are the principal victims of the conflicts between Israel and her neighbors.

MR. MACNEIL: So you don't believe in this case that Israel's giving itself the right of hot pursuit was a legitimate policy, as the Ambassador claims?

MR. KOCH: I think that when we end up as the principal victims of someone else's policy of hot pursuit, it is time that we found a policy of our own that gives us independent options. Israel claims a right to make independent choices and has every right to do them, and I think that we need to do the same, but the point, at this point, we're linked to their policy.

MR. MACNEIL: Sen. Lugar.

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR, [R] Indiana: Well, we are not linked to Israel's policies. We have full options. We are totally independent of the situation, but I think Amb. Arad has made a very good point, that when Israel is fighting terrorism, we're fighting terrorism. As a matter of fact, the same Sheikh that they have seized apparently has kidnapped our people as well as theirs. We have a great deal of common cause. It's not a question of disassociating ourselves with it. We have got to try to work together to the extent that Israeli intelligence forces, as well as military forces have some capability there, given the terrorism that abounds and the needs that we have, we ought to be very close.

MR. MACNEIL: Do you think this is the kind of action, Mr. Bremer, that the United States, itself, should consider, abducting, if it can target certain individuals as Israel did?

AMB. BREMER: Absolutely. I think if the occasion arose.

MR. MACNEIL: That would be the kind of military action that would be appropriate?

AMB. BREMER: There are a number of kinds of military action that are appropriate. The problem it is depends vitally on good intelligence and quick execution and the intelligence has been very hard to get in Lebanon over the years.

MR. MACNEIL: Sen. Dodd, do you think it's the kind of thing the United States should be contemplating?

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD, [D] Connecticut: I don't think you can rule it out. We're dealing in a world today where actions, unorthodox means have to be considered. Ten years ago we might have objected such a proposal out of hand. Today we're, the recognition, as we've witnessed in the last 24 hours, we're dealing with a different crowd here. They don't play by the rules that you and I are used to playing by and let me just mention with regard to Mr. Koch's statement earlier, if I understood him correctly, if we were to accept his decision in a sense and disassociate ourselves, we would be doing exactly, exactly what those who are involved in the assassination of Lt. Col. Higgins want us to do. They want us to disassociate. They want to create that division internationally but most particularly here in this country, and at this moment, I think we've got to be very cautious about allowing ourselves to be lured into that position.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Koch, what about the ambassador's statement that there's no proof that Col. Higgins was, if he has been killed, was killed as a result of the Israeli abduction of the Sheikh, that he might have been killed a long time ago? You heard what he said.

MR. KOCH: Well, I think it's really immaterial. He's just as dead one way or the other and to tack this to a retaliatory action, I think it's important to look at the situation that we find ourselves in Lebanon in the broader context and that's within the framework of the general conflict in the area and not piecemeal on the basis of specific circumstances that arise as this one has arisen.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Ambassador.

AMB. ARAD: I would say exactly the same -- my conclusion would be exactly different, because as we look at the overall perspective of the situation in Lebanon unless this effort continues, and of course we are saddened and shocked by this death, but are we going to save the lives of the other hostages and other Americans, are we going to avoid other cases of kidnapping and terrorism? And this is our mission. In our mission we hope to get the support, indeed, I have the confidence we will get the support of the American administration and American public opinion.

MR. MACNEIL: Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us. Sen. Lugar, Sen. Dodd, Mr. Bremer, and Mr. Koch, thank you all.