Interviewers: Robert MacNeil, James Lehrer

ROBERT MACNEIL: Four Palestinians were reported killed, and up to 70 wounded today, in clashes with Israeli troops in the occupied territories. Those figures were reported by news agencies, as journalists barred from the West Bank and Gaza Strip weighed unofficial reports from hospitals and other sources. The ban on journalists was part of an unprecedented sealing off of the territories to prevent violence. Despite the ban there was violence and the news agency Visnews taped this incident involving Israeli security and Arab youths demonstrating on what Palestinians call Land Day. It was one of numerous incidents on a day in which Israel also closed for six months the Palestine Press Service, the main source many foreign journalists use for Arab accounts of events in the territories. There were several large anti Israeli demonstrations marking Land Day throughout other parts of the Middle East today. Thousands of Palestinians marched through the streets of Damascus, Syria, many carried banners praising the uprising in the occupied areas, and criticizing the peace plan offered by Secretary of State Shultz. Similar demonstrations were reported in Jordan and in Lebanon.

Also in Southern Lebanon, Israeli troops and Lebanese militia killed seven people in a fight with Muslim guerrillas. Backed by tanks and armored cars, the Israeli force attached a village and fierce street battles took place.

LEHRER: The continuing struggle between Israel and the Palestinians is where we go once more tonight. This was Land Day for Palestinians in the occupied territories and elsewhere. And it led to demonstrations, to violence and to death. The Israeli Army had imposed severe restrictions on Arabs living on the West Bank and Gaza Strip in order to restrain the demonstrations called annually to mark what Palestinians claim was Israeli confiscation of their land. Press coverage of today's events was also severely restricted. But wire service reports say at least four Palestinians died and another 70 were injured today. We are going to get separate Israeli and Palestinian views of the day's protests and other issues surrounding the turmoil in the occupied territories now. The first interview is with Israel's Ambassador to the United States, Moshe Arad. Mr. Ambassador, welcome. What about the death and injury tally? Is what I reported just now official, four dead, 70 injured?

MOSHE ARAD, Israeli Ambassador: We have no way -- I don't have a (unintelligible) any official information -- telling us about the exact number of victims that occurred today. However, I would suggest that I would reserve my judgment on this, because usually Arab sources are not always the most, best informed sources, or the most credible sources when we have to deal with the incidents.

LEHRER: Well, the reports that I gave were based on wire service reports that were from Arab sources, but also from Israeli press reports as well. They were a combination, and they tried to piece them together because there was no official information available.

AMB. ARAD: Well, assume the official information will be forthcoming very soon. However, I think we are faced with a temporary situation, with a situation which we are confronting, a situation of warfare, a situation in which for the last three months we were faced not just with demonstrations as they are here. This is a general name used for these events, but rather with riots, with violence, with a threat to the normal life in this area, and a threat to the Israeli living. Both in Israel and in these territories.

LEHRER: Well, what is it -- what is your understanding of what happened today in the occupied territories?

AMB. ARAD: My understanding is that we have taken measures in order to avoid bloodshed, in order to avoid incitations, and in order to avoid the presence of massive mass media. Because our experience over the last three months has been that the presence of the mass media, and especially of the television camera, are a contributing factor in the increase in number of incidents and of demonstrations and of riots.

LEHRER: But as a practical matter, as a reality, there were demonstrations today without the TV cameras, correct? And there was bloodshed, and people died and people got hurt, that's true, is it not?

AMB. ARAD: Well, it's true that incidents occurred today, and they're not going to argue about the facts about which I don't have information.

LEHRER: Right.

AMB. ARAD: So it would be preposterous on my side to argue with that. What I'm trying to say is that we are faced with a situation in the West Bank, in Gaza, in which elements are interested, especially the PLO is interested in inciting to violence, in promoting violence, in making sure that no dialogue is possible, and these elements are encouraged by the presence of the media. But now, even if there's only a partial presence -- and I would like to remind you that there was partial presence --

LEHRER: Yes, we ran some pictures in our news summary --

AMB. ARAD: -- this reflects a situation which we have to bring under control.

LEHRER: And the way to bring it under control is to restrict the press coverage?

AMB. ARAD: No, the way to bring it under control is first of all, to make sure that those people which are the instigators and the perpetrators of this violence, and of these violent demonstrations, would have to be apprehended and dealt with by the due process of justice. And the second is parallel to it, we have indicated our willingness and our interest to initiate a dialogue to continue the political dialogue, the diplomatic dialogue, because we feel that while we have to address, and it is our primary responsibility, to address this issue of violence and to bring about to its end in order to return a certain normalcy of life in the West Bank and Gaza for the local inhabitants. This is our responsibility, as the power which is in control over this area. It is also our policy to pursue a dialogue with the Palestinian leadership, which would be willing to sit down with Israel, and negotiate.

LEHRER: But back to today. What is the official Israeli position on what happened today? In other words, did the measures work, I mean the restrictions on Arab movement within the West Bank and Gaza, the sealing off of the areas to Arabs and to the press, did it hold down the violence? Do you consider the measures a success is what I'm trying to get at.

AMB. ARAD: Let me remind you that the West Bank was closed for people who wanted to come outside (unintelligible). There are people living on the West Bank, were free to move in their cities. There was no curfew in the cities of the West Bank. The curfew was only in the Gaza Strip. Now, the people were permitted to move around, to go about their normal life in these cities, and these areas. The purpose was to avoid the presence of inciters from outside these territories, to reduce the number of representatives of the mass media present, which served as a factor which contributed to the inciting.

LEHRER: I understand that. My question is did it work? From the Israeli position tonight, did it work? Did the measures work? Were the justified?

AMB. ARAD: I think partially yes. Absolutely.

LEHRER: There was less violence as a result?

AMB. ARAD: There was less violence than what we had -- we expected earlier. Was infinitely more bloody incidents that occurred actually. Today, though, as I said, we are sorry. I would like to say that we are sorry for the loss of lives of every individual who lost his life today.

LEHRER: You said the desire of Israel is to sit down and negotiate with the Palestinians. Secretary Shultz sat down and talked to two Palestinian Americans over the weekend, and your government protested -- why? Why was that?

AMB. ARAD: Because those two Palestinians are members of the Palestinian National Council, which is the logistical body of PLO. So the reason for our protest is that we view this meeting as contrary to the spirit of the agreement of the memoranda of understanding which the United States and Israel has reached back in 1975.

LEHRER: And that was a certain --

AMB. ARAD: -- and which was U. S. policy ever since.

LEHRER: Now, as you know, Secretary Shultz is going back to the Middle East this Sunday, trying to keep his peace initiative alive. Is there any prospect at all of that working, as long as your government remains in a kind of stalemated political situation? Isn't that the reality of it right now?

AMB. ARAD: Well, the reality is that the Israeli government is united in welcoming Secretary Shultz, in his forthcoming visit to the area, as we did the last, on the last opportunity when the Secretary was there. I think the Israeli government is interested to hear whatever developments there were since the visit of the Secretary of State, since the meeting that he had with Mr. Shevardnadze here in Washington, and to find out what prospects and in what aspects this initiative is moving forward.

LEHRER: But there's been no change at least in the position of the Prime Minister of Israel, Mr. Shamir, in his position, his adamant opposition to this international peace conference that the Secretary wants. Is that correct?

AMB. ARAD: Well, it's -- I would say the formal situation is that the Israeli cabinet has not taken a formal decision upon the Secretary's initiative and Secretary's plan. It is also true that the Prime Minister has certain reservations about certain aspects of the Secretary's initiative. But we have not rejected and the Prime Minister during his visit here in Washington about a week ago, ten days ago, had opportunity to hear the Secretary's views, the President and the Secretary had the opportunity to hear the Prime Minister's view and his reservations. But I think the continuation of the dialogue and our interest in promoting the process of negotiation, which is the main idea of the Secretary's initiative -- to promote direct and bilateral negotiations within the party -- you will find the Israeli government interested and keen to pursue this dialogue.

LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much. Robin?