Back to Ambassadorial Speeches - Ambassador Zalman Shoval

Interview with Ambassador Shoval on ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley"
Interviewer: David Brinkley November 3, 1991

DAVID BRINKLEY: In Madrid, Spain, this morning, the Palestinian delegation sat down to negotiate with the Israelis for the first time ever. And beyond that, there have been continued arguments, disagreements and some small displays of progress. [voice-over] Now, what are the chances for real progress? We'll ask today's guests: Kamel Abu Jaber, Jordanian Minister of Foreign Affairs and head of the Jordanian-Palestinian delegation to the conference; and Zalman Shoval, the Ambassador to the United States and a member of the Israeli delegation in Madrid; some background on the conference from ABC's chief foreign correspondent Pierre Salinger. And following all this, a special report on a new ABC News/Washington Post poll with the title "Listening to America," a special report on that from our man, Jack Smith. And our discussion here with George Will, Sam Donaldson and Tom Wicker, here on our Sunday program.

MR. BRINKLEY: Ambassador Shoval, in Madrid, thank you for coming in with us today. We're happy to have you.

ZALMAN SHOVAL, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S.: Hello, David.

Mr. BRINKLEY: How are you?

AMB. SHOVAL: Cold. Cold. Very cold in Madrid, but not politically, I hope.

MR. BRINKLEY: Well, a minute ago you had a scarf around your throat. Maybe you should put it back. Take care of yourself, this is no time to get sick.

AMB. SHOVAL: That's all right. That's all right.

MR. BRINKLEY: Here in the studio are George Will and Sam Donaldson, both of ABC News. Now, Mr. Ambassador, give us your impression so far of the peace conference.

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, the conference itself has ended and bilateral talks have started today between Israel and the Jordanian- Palestinians and I think they started in a very cordial atmosphere - productive, constructive atmosphere. I don't know about the Syrians, but the Syrians, of course, are the odd man out here. I think even the Arabs- some of the Arabs are worried about their behavior and its very difficult to predict what they will do.

MR. BRINKLEY: Why are they so hard to get along with here? What do they care- Why do they care so much about where the meetings are held?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, I think there is some- there are two aspects about the whole thing: there's a practical aspect and we would like the meetings to be as close as possible to where the decisions are going to be made - that means the governments - but there's something symbolic, also. The Syrians do not want the meetings to take place in the Middle East because this would be a symbol of the acceptance of Israel as part of the region and that's why they insist to have it any place but the Middle East.

GEORGE WILL, ABC News: Mr. Ambassador, let's stay with the subject of the Syrians for a moment. Before the peace was achieved between Israel and Egypt, there was a saying in the Middle East, and it was this: there could be no war without Egypt, but no peace without Jordan. Is Syria now so bellicose and so well armed that you can now put in Syria where Egypt was and you can say, "No war without Syria, no peace without Jordan?" And can Syria hold the entire process, including the bilateral talks hostage to its own intransigence?

AMB. SHOVAL: They may be trying to do that and we should never forget that Syria, after all, is a regime which makes even Saddam Hussein look like a pussycat, sometimes. They may be fighting for their role as leaders - or at least as lock-in leaders - in the rest of the Arab world, but there is some hope that except for Lebanon, which is, of course, for all practical purposes a Syrian protectorate, the Jordanians and the Palestinians and the other Arabs who are around these countries, like Saudi Arabia and so on, are more and more insistent that peace between Israel and the other Arab countries won't be held hostage anymore to the Syrian separate agenda.

MR. WILL: Let me ask you about the Palestinian delegation. It has been a goal of Israeli politics for years to nurture the emergence of an alternative Palestinian leadership - that is, alternative to the PLO. Do you feel that that is happening with these conspicuous people talking on behalf of the Palestinians in Madrid? Or, do you have a feeling that there are iron links binding this delegation to the PLO?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, if the links are iron links, I think they're becoming rusty, and whatever the claims may be, or the rhetoric, Arafat and the PLO are kept under wraps and these people here on the spot may begin to have their own constituency and I think that's a good sign.

SAM DONALDSON, ABC News: Ambassador Shoval, speaking of rhetoric, there's a lot of hot words used in Madrid. What did you think when the Syrian Foreign Minister held up that "Wanted" poster for Prime Minister Shamir when he was, what, 32 years of age?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, the whole behavior of the Syrians here in Madrid- I mean, I want to deny the rumor that we paid them in order to help our information effort. He may have been talking to the gallery in the Arab world and I can't judge how Arab public opinion, especially in Syria, reacted to that. But I think in the West, it showed what sort of policies- what sort of attitudes the Syrians really maintained and it showed some Israelis- many Israelis who are willing to be forthcoming with regard to peace with the Arab world that we still must be very, very much on our guard as far as Syria is concerned.

MR. DONALDSON: What is your attitude, now, as far as the role of the United States? I know going into this conference Israel was not happy with the pressure that the Bush-Baker team had put on your country to come. Now that you've had the initial session, what's your view?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, I think the United States, especially Secretary Baker, made a magnificent effort to get this whole thing together, the conference in Madrid. Some- There are different opinions about whether this was a completely successful effort or not. I think it was successful, on the whole. But be this as it may, I believe for the chances of peace to really proceed now, from now on we should be less in the limelight of TV cameras. There should be more closed-door, closed- room meetings like we had today with the Jordanian-Palestinians. After some months, we may make progress.

MR. DONALDSON: Can you do it now, by yourselves? That is, the parties in the Mideast now that the United States and the Soviet Union, to some extent, have jump started you? Or, must the United States hold hands, sort of, every step of the way?

AMB. SHOVAL: I don't think so. I hope not, anyway. There may be a stage perhaps toward the end, or if there should be very severe disagreements, the United States and the Soviet Union could again play a more active role. But right now, unless the Jews and the Arabs, themselves, succeed in achieving peace, outside pressure may not always be helpful.

MR. WILL: Mr. Ambassador, there is a theory among some in America and elsewhere that although the settlements are not illegal, they may be an obstacle to peace. There's an alternative theory and it is that the settlements are applying pressure for peace. If the settlements were not going forward there would be more reluctance on the part of your interlocutor to get together and talk. Do you subscribe to that latter theory, that the settlements are pushing this process forward?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, I think there can be very little doubt that the settlements were a catalyst in bringing the Palestinians towards the negotiating table and I don't want to enter into a debate about that. But I think it must be understood that this whole process with regard to Palestinians is about co-existence, co-existence between Israelis and Arabs and not about mutual exclusion.

MR. BRINKLEY: Mr. Ambassador, we've heard here that your delegation and the Palestinian-Jordanian delegation were together this morning, shaking hands, drinking coffee and seemingly having a nice time together. Is that an accurate statement, before we go any further?

AMB. SHOVAL: Yes, it definitely is. We are going to meet again in about a quarter of an hour. Hopefully we'll get some more coffee - we need it - and we will set the timetable for continued meetings, probably already next week.

MR. BRINKLEY: Well, you two seem to be making more progress than any others at the peace conference, particularly the Syrians. Is it possible that the Palestinians and Israelis can work out something without regard to what Syria wants or does not want?

AMB. SHOVAL: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you because we have the whole Spanish air force, or something like that, just flying by. Would you repeat the question?

MR. BRINKLEY: Yeah, we heard the planes flying. My question was: since the Israeli and Palestinian delegations seem to be getting along quite well in private, is it possible the two of you might work out something without regard to Syria and its likes and dislikes?

AMB. SHOVAL: Look, we would like to have comprehensive peace but I don't think that if there were a possibility to achieve peace with one or another factor and somebody else does not want to make peace with us, I think we shouldn't hold the process up. As a matter of fact, we made the same offers to the Palestinians and the Jordanians - especially the Palestinians- 13 years ago, after Camp David. They rejected our proposal at that time. Hopefully, they won't blow it again. My feeling is that they have understood that time is not on their side and we are eager to find a solution to what is usually called "the Palestinian problem," but what is really a way for Jews and Arabs to live together in the country which both of us claim.

MR. WILL: There are some sub-issues in this negotiations simply too hot to talk about, obviously, and one of those is Jerusalem. Do you have a feeling that there is a willingness on both sides, particularly on the Jordanian side, to leave that off the table on the assumption that if it gets on the table, all hell will break loose?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, I don't know if that's the motive or the motivation but I think everybody understands they are going to be, in spite of the very cordial atmosphere, there's going to be some very hot issues which will come up in the future. And I think it's a good negotiating procedure to leave these after agreement has been reached on some other points.

Mr. BRINKLEY: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much for coming outside the meeting to talk with us. You're on a lunch break, I understand, so don't miss your lunch. Thank you again.

AMB. SHOVAL: Thank you very much.