CNN Interview with Ambassador Zalman Shoval on the Deportation of Palestinians January 27, 1993

CNN INTERVIEW WITH AMBASSADOR ZALMAN SHOVAL ON THE DEPORTATION OF PALESTINIANS
                          Interviewer: Reid Collins
                               January 27, 1993


REID COLLINS, Anchor: With us now to continue our discussion on Middle East 
peace prospects is Zalman Shoval, the outgoing Israeli ambassador to the 
United States who leaves his post next week to be replaced by Itamar 
Rabinovich.

Mr. Ambassador, the relationship between your country and the United States 
was, perhaps, not as -- as firm as it has been during the latter stages of the 
Bush Administration; the bond guarantees, the Occupied Territories, West Bank 
construction.  Tell me what you foresee a Clinton Administration will be to 
Jerusalem?

ZALMAN SHOVAL, Israeli Ambassador to U.S.: Well, let me say first of all, in 
spite of the bad chemistry and the atmospherics, in concrete results this was 
not a bad period.  I mean, we had good agreements at the end of the day on the 
loan guarantees, on military and strategic matters.  I think the perceptions 
were worse than the realities.  With regard to the Clinton Administration, we 
have high hopes.  There will definitely be continuity in some of the most 
important aspects and there may be some changes, maybe for the better.  So, we 
have high hopes.

COLLINS: In the matter of the potential of some sanctions imposed by the 
United Nations, the American Ambassador Harab [sp] was quick to reassure, 
wasn't he?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, it would be inconceivable that, for the first time in 44 
years, that the United Nations would impose sanctions on Israel, a victim of 
aggression taking measures which may not be popular everywhere, but measures 
against a bunch of terrorists, fundamentalist, extremist terrorists, who have 
declared that they want to destroy the peace process.  The State of Israel -- 
that Israel would not only be condemned on that, and I think that was a 
mistake.

I think the United Nations gave itself a black eye -- but impose sanctions -- 
would be inconceivable.

COLLINS: Well, you have to say, though, your description of a 'bunch of 
terrorists' doesn't seem to apply aptly to all 400 --

AMB. SHOVAL: No, there may have -- there may have been a few mistakes.  There 
may have been a few mistakes.  By the way, there's some misunderstanding about 
that. Some of those people, people who were brought back to Israel because 
they were expelled by mistake, are not innocents.  They were put to trial --

COLLINS: They went to jail, didn't they?

AMB. SHOVAL: That's right.  They are probably more active terrorists than the 
rest.  These --

COLLINS: But, nonetheless --

AMB. SHOVAL: These people are the ringleaders of a very dangerous organization 
and Israel, like every democratic country, has a problem, has a dilemma.  How 
do you deal with somebody who wants to subvert your very existence?  That's 
what it's all about.

COLLINS: Mr. Ambassador, let me draw you an analogy that's not completely 
analogous, but it may fit.  If the United States, following the central Los 
Angeles riots, had rounded up, say 400 Latinos, as sometimes people refer to 
them, sent them to Mexico -- what sort of reaction --

AMB. SHOVAL: What you call Latinos are American citizens.

COLLINS: Not all.  No, I could find 400 who are not.

AMB. SHOVAL: Okay.  This is not a group of people who have declared their 
avowed aim is the destruction of the State of Israel, the destruction of the 
Jewish people in Israel -- by the way, one of the leaders made the statement 
yesterday that the destruction of the United States of America would be one of 
their aims -- this is something which endangers our very existence, not to 
say, or not to mention even that they have said that the peace process between 
us and the Palestinians, between us and the Moderate Palestinians is 
illegitimate because they do not want to accept the State of Israel.  This is 
a very harsh situation which sometimes, unfortunately, necessitates harsh 
measures.

COLLINS: But you have laws and you have jails.  Why not simply have the -- let 
it go at that, jail those who disobey the law?  Wouldn't that, in retrospect, 
have been easier?

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, the people who were expelled, and that's part of the 
dilemma, they're not necessarily the bomb-throwers or the pistol-shooters.

COLLINS: Well, they think wrongly?

AMB. SHOVAL: They are the people who direct these operations, they instigate 
them, they get the financing so that the organization -- what do you do with 
people like that?  Do you put them in preventive concentration camps?  That's 
a problem too.

COLLINS: No, I think you jail them for crimes committed or conspiracies that 
are provable.

AMB. SHOVAL: That could be a way, and that is a way which we, of course, take 
with certain people, but when they are in jail, in Israel or in the 
Territories, they maintain their contacts with their organizations.  When they 
are brought -- the contacts are broken, these are harsh measures and this is a 
very harsh reality.  It's not a humanitarian problem.  It's not even a legal 
problem although legalistics are involved.  It is a first-rate security 
problem; how does a small, free society defend itself against those who want 
to destroy it? Nobody has yet found the perfect answer, including the United 
States in the second World War, if I may add.

COLLINS: If the high court of your country finds the action to be illegal 
tomorrow, then what happens?

[crosstalk]

AMB. SHOVAL: Well, if the high court would -- if the high court would decide 
that the action was illegal, the government of Israel will, of course, obey 
the court.  There's absolutely no doubt about that.  If the court should 
decide that the action was legal, the government of Israel will take a 
political decision what it wants to do from now.  It doesn't have to say 
'Okay, they said it's legal, we won't make any changes.' That's a political, 
administrative decision which the government will have to embark on tomorrow.

COLLINS: Mr. Ambassador, we thank you very much for your time and for your 
service and company here in Washington.

[crosstalk]

AMB. SHOVAL: Thank you.  I thank you.

COLLINS: And shalom.

AMB. SHOVAL: Good-bye.  Shalom.