Interview with Ambassador Shoval and Ambassador Karam of Lebanon on the MacNeil/Lehrer Newshour December 22, 1992

   INTERVIEW WITH AMBASSADOR SHOVAL AND AMBASSADOR KARAM OF LEBANON ON THE
                           MACNEIL/LEHRER NEWSHOUR
                           Interviewer: Jim Lehrer
                              December 22, 1992


JIM LEHRER: Now to the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Zalman Shoval.  
Mr. Ambassador, welcome.

ZALMAN SHOVAL (Israeli ambassador to the U.S.): Hello.

LEHRER: Do you agree this is a public relations disaster for your country of 
the first order?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: I've heard that phrase so many times in these two years, 
I'm immune to it.  Yes, there's a lot of misunderstanding in the beginning, 
some of it I think on purpose.  People have to understand what we have to cope 
with. We have to cope with a fundamentalist terrorist organization which is 
out to destroy the state of Israel, to kill Jews because they're Jews, by the 
way also to kill any other Western influence if they can get their hands on 
it.  This is a problem, this is a dilemma, which democratic societies face 
when they have to cope with people who want to destroy them.  The Weimar 
Republic didn't know how to cope with Nazis, and they suffered from that.  The 
German government now is trying to cope with the neo-Nazis, I hope in a more 
effective way.

The Islamic fundamentalists--the Hamas, the Islamic Jihad--these 
organizations, they don't fight Israel because of the territory or because of 
occupation, so to say; they want to destroy Israel.  They say so openly.  
Israel has to take certain measures which are not always very delicate, not 
always very palatable to us, to the Israeli society, which is an open society, 
which is a free society.

But how do you fight these things?  You don't fight these things with 
niceties.


LEHRER: A lot of the questions that have been raised here, as you know, Mr. 
Ambassador, because you're here--you've read them and you've heard them--is 
that Israel is a democratic society; if these 415 men have committed crimes, 
why are they not just put on trial rather than picked up in the middle of the 
night and sent out of the country?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Because these people are the infrastructure, they're the 
people who direct the activities. They are not necessarily the people who stab 
Jews and Israelis or throw hand grenades; they are the organizational 
infrastructure of this organization.

Now, it may be very difficult to put them in prison without putting them on 
trial, or to put them on trial and to find something which says you have 
committed a crime yesterday. They are the people who plan the operations.

Now, what did we do?  They had due process; they were sent abroad to another 
Arab country.  They have the right to appeal again within 60 days, and even at 
the maximum they will only be there for up to two years, which I think is a 
lot more humane than some countries I won't mention, even democratic 
countries, who execute terrorists of that sort, or put them in concentration 
camps, or banish them--

LEHRER: (Inaudible.)

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, I think they are.  I don't want to mention names.  
You know, some in the countries surrounding us today which face the same sort 
of threat we do, well, things are going on--I don't want to mention names.  
But there are some very decisive names going on in countries in the Middle 
East who realize how dangerous this Muslim fundamentalism--planned, financed, 
armed by Iran and by Sudan-- really is to the whole existence.  Instead of 
blaming us--the government of Lebanon, for instance--we should form an 
alliance of states to fight Muslim fundamentalism which is a scourge for all 
of us and a danger to all of us.

LEHRER: What obligation does Lebanon have to take these people?  What was the 
Israeli government's thinking in sending them to Lebanon?  These people are 
not from Lebanon.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, they're not from Lebanon. Of course, Lebanon is an 
Arab country just like the rest, and we have sent people of that sort before 
to Lebanon; they were usually accepted there.  But let's go beyond that.  I 
understand that the Lebanese officials, and I'm sure that the Lebanese 
ambassador is going to say Lebanon is not a dumping ground for terrorists, or 
whatever.  I'm sure that they must have said that with their tongue very 
firmly in their cheek.

Lebanon, unfortunately, is a convention center almost for terrorist 
organizations.  The whole of southern Lebanon is an area for the Hizbullah, 
which is another fundamentalist organization attacking Israel.  They don't do 
anything about that.  So to talk now about sovereignty--I wish there were a 
sovereign country which could really control its territory.  All we have done 
is sent 415 people to their Arab brethren who are willing, I think, to receive 
them, although the government of Lebanon says not.

LEHRER: What happens as a practical matter now, Mr. Ambassador?  The 
government of Lebanon has not only said they won't receive them, but today has 
said they will no longer permit these 415 men to receive food, water, and 
other humanitarian aid.  And what happens?  Does Israel feel it has no further 
responsibility?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, these people are in Lebanon, they are not in no-man's 
land, they are in Lebanon proper.  That was what the Israeli supreme court 
today had to deliberate: Are they in sovereign Lebanon or are they not?

LEHRER: The reason it's called no-man's land--it's technically Lebanon but 
it's under control or has been under control of militia that are very 
sympathetic to Israel.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: No, not this part, this is north of the security area.  
They are in Lebanon proper.  It's up to the Lebanese government or the Arab 
humanitarian organizations to decide what to do about that?

LEHRER: So it's no longer Israel's problem.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: It is Israel's problem, of course it is a problem, we 
realize it's a problem.  But it is not Israel's solution; we can't solve that 
problem.

LEHRER: Secretary of State Eagleburger was on this program last night and he 
made the comment about the Israelis are people who are concerned with civil 
rights and treating people humanely and thus, I quote--this is Eagleburger: "I 
can't believe that they could look at these people out there in the middle of 
nowhere, with nowhere to go, and be shot at from all directions, and believe 
in the long run that this is the way to solve the problem.  I cannot believe 
that the Israelis in the long run will be able to sustain this."

Is the secretary wrong?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: He may be right, because we are a free and open society.  
But we always have to think twice.  What do we give vent to, our basic 
humanitarian feelings--and we are a democratic society, as Secretary 
Eagleburger said--or our sense of self-preservation?  We are a small people, a 
small country, facing forces with absolutely no consideration for due process 
of law, for morality, for human rights.  They want to destroy us.  And we have 
to find a middle way.  Other countries in our position would have imposed the 
death sentence long ago-- there's no doubt about that.  We try to find a 
middle way. Everybody may not accept that.  It creates problems, public 
relations problems, problems with good friends like Secretary Eagleburger of 
the United States--and I want to praise the United States in trying to contain 
the all-out assault on Israel at the United Nations.

Nobody at the Security Council even mentioned the provocation which we have 
had.  The Israeli policeman who was brutally murdered, stabbed to death--he 
had nothing to do with territories, occupation, anything like that.

LEHRER: And there are five others who were killed.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: And five others.  But, look, we were condemned before at 
the U.N.  Eleven years ago we were condemned 15 to nil for bombing the Iraqi 
nuclear reactor--now everybody thanks us.  I think less than 11 years will 
pass before everybody thanks us for fighting Islamic fundamentalism, which is 
one of the great dangers to the free world in the future.

LEHRER: I asked Secretary Eagleburger last night if he thought there would be 
a quick solution to this.

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: He said no.

LEHRER: He said no.  Would you agree with him about that?

AMBASSADOR SHOVAL: Well, I would agree with him.  But the best solution for 
this problem and for similar problems is if the rational pragmatic Palestinian 
leadership, the people with whom I sit, we sit, in the negotiating room would 
finally come home and say to the Palestinian constituency: look, the only 
solution is in negotiating with Israel, in finding some sort of peaceful modus 
vivendi; all the rest is only going to hurt the Israelis, but also you, the 
Palestinians.  They should encourage the Palestinians to turn away from 
extremism and towards negotiations with Israel.  That's the solution.

LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.

JIM LEHRER: Now we go to the Lebanese ambassador to the United States, Simon 
Karam.  Mr. Ambassador, welcome to you, sir.

SIMON KARAM (Lebanese ambassador to the U.S.): Thank you.

LEHRER: Do you agree that this problem is now a Lebanese problem, as the 
supreme court of Israel said today.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, from the very beginning it was an Israeli problem, it 
remains an Israeli problem.  And the Israelis should try to find a solution to 
this problem themselves.

LEHRER: But the Israeli ambassador is correct, is he not, that these 415 men 
are now in fact on land of Lebanon?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: The Israelis have dumped these people on Lebanese territory; 
they have dumped them on a territory that is under the fire of their gun, and 
they keep shooting on them.  The only solution of this problem is to take them 
back, as was suggested yesterday by Secretary Eagleburger.

LEHRER: Why is it that your country will not accept these 415 men?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Because this will put an unjust burden on our security and 
on our process of recovery.  We just cannot be a dumping ground for the 
Israelis, and we cannot accept to take any people that the Israelis think they 
should dump in Lebanon.

LEHRER: Do you see these people as terrorists?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't see them as terrorists. The fact is they were not 
given the chance to stand before a tribunal.  They were just taken in the dead 
of the night from their beds; they were put on buses, and they were just 
dumped in Lebanon.

LEHRER: Do you see them as Arab brothers?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: They are Arab brothers for us, but the fact is that we 
cannot found a solution for the Israelis on this issue.

LEHRER: Why not?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Because it will be a threat to our security.

LEHRER: Because of what these 415 men might do in Lebanon once they got there?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't know what they might do, but we can see that this 
situation will be very detrimental to our recovery process.

LEHRER: You heard what Ambassador Shoval said, that your country is a kind of 
convention center now for various terrorist organizations, including other 
Islamic fundamentalist groups--he mentioned Hizbullah.  This group that he's 
talking about, these 415 men, are allegedly members of Hamas.  Do you agree 
with him, is he right about that?


AMBASSADOR KARAM: Lebanon went into some very difficult problem for awhile.  
We are in the midst of a recovery now.  We have a strong central government.  
We have a reliable army.  We are trying to do our best to control our internal 
situation.  And we think that the Israelis in dumping people in our country 
are harming this security situation very much.

LEHRER: So in other words if you had some terrorists already there, what 
you're saying is you don't need any more from Israel.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Excuse me?

LEHRER: If what the ambassador from Israel says is true, that you already have 
some terrorist type people in your country, you certainly don't need any more, 
is that what you're essentially saying, sir?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: No, I am not trying to say that we have terrorists in our 
country.  We have people that are fighting Israeli occupation of Lebanon in 
south Lebanon, we have people that are opposing the fact that Israel since 
more than 15 years now occupies all of the south of Lebanon.

LEHRER: Now, the decision of your government today to deny these 415 men 
humanitarian aid, what are the ramifications of that down the road?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We didn't deny humanitarian aid to them.  We have just 
restricted access to them to the International Red Cross.  The International 
Red Cross will be able to reach them from certain passes that are in Lebanon.

LEHRER: So they will still be able to be fed.  And I read a report today that 
fresh water was almost gone, and all of that.  You're saying your government 
is not going to deny these people food and water, is that right?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: The access of welfare to them was restricted to the 
International Red Cross.  We think that the International Red Cross can handle 
this situation properly.

LEHRER: Where do you see this thing going from here? I mean, these men are 
going to stay there.  You have said--you meaning your government has said that 
it's Israel's problem, Israel said, no, it's Lebanon's problem.  You heard 
what the ambassador said: the solution now must be found in Lebanon. You've 
just said, no, the solution has to be found in Israel. What's going to happen, 
sir?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, the simplest solution is for the Israelis to take them 
back, as was said yesterday by Secretary Eagleburger.  We think that this is a 
moral burden on them, this is a moral Israeli responsibility.  As far as we 
are concerned, we stand on very firm moral ground, we stand on very
 firm political ground, and legally our position is very solid.

LEHRER: Do you have any sympathy for the Israeli position as expressed by Mr. 
Shoval just now and by the Israeli prime minister in the last few days, that 
these 415 men are dedicated to the destruction of their country, to the 
destruction of Israel, and that's why they had to act?  Does that arouse in 
any sympathy in you and your fellow Lebanese?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't want to hurt the Israelis ourselves.  The fact is 
that our country is still largely under Israeli occupation.  As far as these 
people, they were not even given the chance to stand before a tribunal, 
whether in Israel or elsewhere.  They were just taken out of their bed, they 
were put in buses, blindfolded, and dropped in Lebanon without being convicted 
and without a sentence being issued on them.

LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, as I spoke to Ambassador Shoval about this, and about 
the public relations problem that this has developed for Israel, is there a 
potential for this turning around and becoming also a public relations problem 
for Lebanon, that these men sit in your country and are not well-fed and all 
of that?  Is there a potential for this thing to turn around and bite you all 
as well as it is Israel?

AMBASSADOR KARAM: Well, I think that this is not a public relations issue; it 
is a moral issue where the Israelis are in full responsibility for finding a 
solution for this situation.

LEHRER: Lebanon has no responsibility.

AMBASSADOR KARAM: We don't think we have.

LEHRER: All right, Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.