INTERVIEW WITH AMBASSADOR ITAMAR RABINOVICH
                           ON THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW 
                     September 14, 1995 - 11:00 p.m. EST 

 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: In September 1993, Yitzhak Rabin and Yasir Arafat shook 
hands on the White House lawn, symbolizing a breakthrough for peace in the 
Middle East.  Two years later, much of the optimism associated with that 
moment has deteriorated with the rise of terrorism.  What is the future of the 
Middle East peace accord?  Joining me now from Washington, Israeli ambassador 
to the United States, Itamar Rabinovich.  I'm very pleased to be able to 
discuss this with you, Mr. Ambassador.  Could you give us an assessment of 
where we are now, since we seem to be on the verge of what is popularly 
referred to as Oslo II, but in effect, another major agreement between the 
Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government. 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S.: [Washington, D.C.] Yes, we 
may be very close to the signing of the interim agreement, which would be the 
implementation of the second phase of the Oslo agreement, and once we do that, 
that would be, of course, a very important landmark in the implementation of 
the agreement.  If I may refer to what you said at the outset, the aura of 
optimism and sense of elation that have accompanied the signing have been 
dissipated, mostly by terrorism, but yet there is a sense that what was signed 
is working, that reality in the Middle East and in the Israeli-Palestinian 
context is changing, and that we are on the road to implementation. 
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: Well, in effect, as I understand it, a number of the 
major villages or cities in the West Bank that are virtually entirely Arab are 
now going to be turned over to the Palestinian Authority.  Is that correct? 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: Turned over in the sense that they will be under 
Palestinian administration.  They will not be under Palestinian sovereignty.  
Sovereignty, ultimate control and other issues of final status will be 
discussed beginning May 1996, and what will happen once the agreement is 
signed and implemented with regard to the major towns and the heavily 
populated rural area is that the Palestinians will administer themselves in 
the West Bank, or in parts of the West Bank, as they have been doing since May 
of last year in Gaza.   
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: Now, there are widespread concerns within Israel, 
certainly, that there are groups within the Palestinian community - Hamas and 
the Islamic Jihad, for example - who remain opposed to the peace agreement and 
indeed to the- any kind of serious peace with Israel.  Many people also are 
concerned that the Palestinian Authority under Arafat are not doing enough to 
confront these groups, and therefore they have lost some confidence in the 
real intentions of the PLO, a confidence which has been further undermined by 
some statements that Arafat has made to his own people that still seem to 
speak of jihad, of joining everybody, including himself, to be one of the so-
called martyrs - that is, the, the bombers, et cetera, et cetera - and so 
there has been, I think, an erosion of confidence within the Israeli body 
politic about the intentions.  Could you comment, in a sense, on how that 
reaction is in fact affecting what is happening with Israel, and whether or 
not the Israeli government at this point is satisfied with the security 
efforts undertaken by the PLO under Arafat? 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: Up until about four month ago, we, the Israeli government, 
had our own reservations and doubts concerning the, the willingness of the 
Palestinian Authority in Gaza to take on Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other 
groups bent on destroying the agreement and conducting terrorism against 
Israelis to take them on fully.  And about four month ago, we were persuaded 
that Arafat has changed his tune and has taken them vigorously - not, perhaps, 
as vigorously as we would have done, but quite vigorously - and it was then 
that we resumed the negotiations in full steam with regard to the 
implementation of the agreement that hopefully will be signed now.   
 
And you pointed to question marks that Israelis have.  They do have them.  
They have them with regard to the issue that we just discussed, and with 
regard to the atmosphere that emanates from the leadership of the Palestinians 
with regard to the ethos of the new relationship.  We continue to press- I 
would define the bottom line grade that we, we give to this conduct as 
satisfactory.  It's not optimum.  It's not ideal.  It's satisfactory.  And we 
continue and will continue to press in order to get the Palestinian Authority 
to fight even more vigorously against Hamas and such groups and to send a 
different message to, to their own people.  I would like to emphasize that 
this is an agreement that is implemented in phases.  The transition from one 
phase to the other is not automatic.  We are a year behind schedule, and we 
have kept it a year behind schedule because for almost a year, we were not 
happy with the way things were being implemented.  We are the more powerful 
partner in, in all of this.  If- a couple of weeks ago, when we were not 
pleased with something that happened in Jericho, we put a blockade around the, 
the town of Jericho.  We have the wherewithal to do it. This is not something 
we wish to do, but this is something that we can do.   
 
And therefore, I am, I'm confident that we have the ability to make sure that 
implementation occurs, and I'm also persuaded that as time goes by, the self-
will of the Palestinians will continue to navigate them in the same direction. 
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: You know, I don't think we in America quite understand 
what it's like to live with the kind of terrorism that has been, in effect, 
launched against the Israelis.  I mean, it would be the equivalent, in terms 
of the number of people who were killed, as if 6,000 people were killed in the 
United States and 20,000 injured. Now, that has got to have a huge effect 
politically on the attitudes of the Israelis.  You have an election coming up, 
I believe, in November of 1996.  The Israeli prime minister, Rabin, has said 
that his electoral future is going to be dependent on whether or not Hamas can 
set off a number of terrorist bombs within Israel in the 60 days prior to the 
election.  How in the world do you, A, live with it, and B, cope with those 
kinds of almost deadly assaults against the ordinary aspects of life - taking 
the bus, going to a restaurant, going to school.  I understand the parents of 
the schoolchildren this year literally went on strike because they wanted to 
make sure that their schools had some kind of protection.  Describe to us how 
you deal with that and how you live with that. 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: You know the- you don't necessarily have to go very far.  
If the attack against the World Trade Center in New York would have been fully 
effective, New Yorkers might have been treated to that effect.  What happened 
in Oklahoma City in a different context. I think these are, I think, vivid 
illustrations for Americans as to what life, life can be like.  The fact that 
Israelis in Israel and in pre-state Israel have lived with war, conflict, and, 
and terror for many decades now does not reduce the impact of this and the 
type of suicide terrorism, suicide bombs that Israelis inside Israel proper 
have been treated to in the past few month and couple of years have brought 
this ef- sense of terrorism, the effect of terrorism to a new and 
unprecedented height. Israelis know what it means, and while it, it terrorizes 
people, it also enforces the sense that there has to be a solution to all of 
this.  And in a paradoxical way, this is also an engine that drives the peace 
for- the peace process forward because people realize that there are police 
and intelligence approaches to terrorism, but the solution has to be a 
combination of political solution with the continued security campaign that, 
that we have been, have been launching.  Now- 
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: Go ahead.  One, one- I'm sorry.  Let me- why don't you 
just finish, and then I want to talk to you- 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: Yeah.  I- 
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: -briefly about Syria, because we don't have too much 
time left. 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: Fine.  I just wanted to say that in terms of the personal 
feelings of Israelis, we know that the single most important determinant of 
the attitude of Israel as a society and individual Israelis to the peace 
process is the sense of personal security or the absence of personal security, 
and what we witness is political cynicism by Hamas and such groups who are 
trying to exploit this sense in order to derail the peace process.  
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: In about 30 seconds, as an expert on Syria - I'm going 
to ask you to condense your answer - but can Israel accomplish peace in that 
area without Syria? 
 
ITAMAR RABINOVICH: Israel can accomplish a degree of peace in, in the region 
without Syria.  We, we have accomplished peace with Jordan.  We have a 
framework agreement with the Palestinians.  We have a growing degree of 
normalization with the rest of the Arab world.  And these are all important 
achievements that stand on their own. 
 
MORTIMER B. ZUCKERMAN: I want to thank you very much for sharing your thoughts 
with us.   
 
I want to also say on behalf of Charlie Rose - I am not Charlie Rose, even 
though I would like to be.  I'm Mort Zuckerman, the editor of US News & World 
Report, substituting for Charlie Rose - thank you all very much for joining 
us. Goodnight. 
 

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