May 21, 1990
|
Interview with Ambassador Arad and
Egyptian Ambassador El-Reedy on CNN's "Crossfire" May 21, 1990 |
INTERVIEW WITH AMBASSADOR ARAD AND
EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR EL-REEDY ON CNN'S "CROSSFIRE"
Interviewers: Mike Kinsley, Pat Buchanan
May 21, 1990
ANNOUNCER: From Washington, Crossfire. On the left, Mike Kinsley. On
the right, Pat Buchanan. Tonight, Middle East Mayhem. In the
crossfire, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Moshe Arad. And Egyptian
Ambassador to the U.S. Abdel Raouf El-Reedy.
MIKE KINSLEY: Good evening. Welcome to Crossfire. Only yesterday some
were saying that the two-and-half-year-old Palestinian uprising in
Israel's occupied territories might be dying out. Tonight the
territories are aflame and rioting has spread to Israel proper. It
started when a deranged Israeli, reportedly upset over a sour love
affair, opened up with an automatic rifle on a group of unarmed
Palestinians. Seven were killed. Within hours, seven more Palestinians
had died and 650 were wounded as Israeli soldiers attempted to quell the
resulting riot. Today, three more died and over a hundred were wounded.
In Jerusalem, an Israeli restaurant owner was murdered and Islamic
fundamentalist group claimed responsibility. And in Jordan, a
Palestinian opened fire on a tour bus wounding 10 French tourists. The
Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PLO, which had publicly
forsworn terrorism, now says, quote, 'Any action against Israel is
justified.' So, yesterday's peace hopes are shattered, an old story in
the Middle East. What next, Pat?
PAT BUCHANAN: Mr. Ambassador, in the two and a half years Michael
mentioned, I mean, it's something like 700 Palestinians killed,
thousands have been imprisoned, the number of wounded and injured is in
the tens of thousands. You got 800 injured or wounded in the last 48
hours. What do these people have to do, the Palestinians, to prove they
have a right to be free and independent?
MOSHE ARAD, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S.: We think that the
Palestinians have a right to -- they have legitimate political rights
and Israel has offered this both in its peace initiative offered a year
ago in April and suggesting that the Palestinians would have elections,
free elections that they would be able to elect their own leadership.
The fact that the PLO refuses to accept any such plan because they are
against elections because they feel that once elections will be held,
their power, the power of the gun would actually --
BUCHANAN: Ambassador Arad, Israel prides itself on being the only
democracy in the Middle East. For 23 years, you've ruled over these
people. How many really free elections have you permitted them to have?
I know they elected some mayors and the mayors were all thrown out of
the territory. How many -- why haven't they been allowed to have
elections in 23 years?
AMB. ARAD: But let me tell you that Israel has -- is a country that has
an excellent record in keeping free elections. It has offered such free
elections. I don't think the Palestinians had ever had an opportunity to
have free elections, and when they are offered the PLO and the
terrorists acting on behalf of the PLO are actually trying to
assassinate any such Palestinian which is trying to entertain the idea
of negotiations.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me -- let me read a statement from your own --
a famous foreign minister, Abba Eban. He said our land is a land of two
histories, two tongues, two faiths, two national dreams, two identities.
Why not two countries?
AMB. ARAD: Because we feel that separating the Palestinian issue from
the wider conflict which the majority of the Arab countries still
refusing to come to terms with the reality of Israel and with the
existence of Israel and suggesting that you can separate the -- the
attitudes, the warlike attitude of the Arab world, with the exception of
Egypt, against Israel, and separating it from the Palestinian issue,
that's a mistake that many people are falling into the trap, that you
can address only the Palestinian issue, resolve it by establishing a
state which would be used as the platform for the PLO and for other Arab
states to initiate another war against Israel, but from different
borders and not from the areas in which we are in now. And let's not
forget that Israel is in these territories as an outcome, as a result of
a war of aggression against it in 1967 initiated exactly by those same
Arab countries and by the Palestinians.
KINSLEY: Mr. Ambassador, in February, nine Israeli tourists were
murdered in a- in a terrorist attack on a bus in your country. Now, if
Egypt is not responsible for that occurrence, why is the Israeli
government for what this madman did yesterday?
ABDEL RAOUF EL-REEDY, Egyptian Ambassador to the United States: We are
not very concerned -- of course, we are concerned about the killing
which took place yesterday and what happened in Cairo, what happened in
Amman and so on. But the real focus is not on the -- what this deranged
man did. The real focus on -- is on the behavior of the Israeli army
forces afterwards in Gaza, where you have seven or eight people who have
been killed, 700 people have been injured. And what happened yesterday
in Gaza and is still happening is -- sums up the whole situation in this
country, that you have here one people, Palestinian people, who have the
right to live free, have their own self-determination but you have a
foreign army who is trying to suppress their rights by force. But this
is --
KINSLEY: The first thing Mr. Shamir said when this happened was this is
absolute appalling and terrible. The second thing he says is, we hope
it doesn't become an occasion for rioting and chaos. Both those things
seem quite correct to me. Why doesn't the Israeli -- excuse me, the
Egyptian government say the same thing, especially the second? Why
don't you call on the Palestinians to cool it?
AMB. EL-REEDY: We call on everybody to -- to keep its snares. We have
been calling on the -- only the Arab side to be -- to be cool. But also
the most important thing is that those who are shooting, who is shooting
in Gaza? It is the Israeli government forces. It is Israeli soldiers,
excuse me. The Israeli soldiers are shooting on these civilians who
need nothing but to get their freedom, their right to self-determination
and to be free and not to be ruled by another --
AMB. ARAD: Mr. Ambassador, I find that this --
AMB. EL-REEDY: This is an illegal occupation of West Bank and Gaza --
AMB. ARAD: I find that this --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- which is 20 percent of original Palestine. That is
the issue.
BUCHANAN: All right, Mr. Ambassador.
AMB. ARAD: This appeal to calm on behalf of an Arab dignitary is the
first one I hear it in the last 36 hours. Prime Minister Badran of
Jordan, in a statement which he made yesterday, several hours after the
incident, actually called this is an act which --
BUCHANAN: Ordered by the government, yeah?
AMB. ARAD: Initiated, ordered by the Israeli government --
BUCHANAN: Mr. Ambassador --
AMB. ARAD: And he regard Israeli authorities as terrorist authorities.
BUCHANAN: Mr. Ambassador, let me ask you this question in that light.
To what extent has Israeli -- the hard-line Israeli policies, Mr. Rabin
said, we're going to use force, might and beatings. Others have called
the Palestinians high in the government, grasshoppers. To what extent,
has the attitude of the Israeli government that these people have to be
crushed to end this thing, has it set a climate in which agreed this
crazy, deranged individual acted?
AMB. ARAD: Well, to try to attribute responsibility for the -- for an
action by a deranged individual to the Israeli government, I think this
is setting double standard. We did not attribute any responsibility to
the Egyptian government when a deranged Israeli soldier -- Egyptian
soldiers, pardon me, in 1985 shoots seven Israelis to death in Rasbuka
[sp.] near the Israeli-Sinai border --
AMB. EL-REEDY: Well, that's not the issue --
AMB. ARAD: The issue is that we did not assume for one moment then that
the Egyptian government is responsible for these acts --
KINSLEY: But what --
AMB. ARAD: How should anyone assume that the Israeli government is
responsible for --
BUCHANAN: We didn't say responsible, sir. But to what extent, has the
climate been created -- I mean, look, let's take what happened -- the
seven -- look, shooting down, I mean, to Americans and we're not there,
but shooting down seven or 800 people in two days, I mean, sounds like
an army on a rampage. Now, maybe -- maybe it's not, we're not there.
But that is a tremendous number of wounded people.
AMB. ARAD: Well, let me clarify it. Out of -- first of all, as far as I
know and I checked those figures just before coming here, there were
about 600 people wounded. Out of them 100 spent the night hospital.
And today 50 of them left for home. In other words, let's not
exaggerate. The figures are high as they are. And I would say that
every Israeli leader and every Israeli citizen is saddened, is shocked
by what happened. So, I'm not -- we are not condoning and I'm not
trying to get any sympathy for this act. I think we are the first to
express our shock and we are the first who are interested in
reestablishing law and order. Now, if we are faced with a massive
demonstration, violent demonstration aimed at Israeli soldiers, aimed at
Israeli civilians, and we are at the same time instead of having appeals
for calm down from Mr. Arafat, Mr. Rabushari [sp.], from the Prime
Minister of Jordan. Actually statements inflaming these people and
calling for further acts of violence. What do you expect these people
to do?
BUCHANAN: Okay. We'll be back with the question, what happened to the
Sadat-Begin accords at Camp David and to the Middle East peace we all
thought was at hand?
[Commercial break]
BUCHANAN: Twelve years ago President Sadat and Prime Minister Begin
joined hands in the Rose Garden with Jimmy Carter in the peace agreement
that would win the Egyptian and the Israeli a Nobel Peace Prize. But
today peace seems more elusive than ever as a Sunday massacre by a
deranged ex-Israeli soldier reignited the Palestinian uprising leading
to an Israeli army crackdown that has left 18 Palestinians dead and
perhaps as many as 800 wounded. Here to discuss the latest bloodshed
and what it means for peace are Abdel Raouf El-Reedy, the Egyptian
Ambassador to the United States. And Moshe Arad, Israel's Ambassador to
the United States.
Mr. Arad, as you know, in the U.S. Congress they are not only getting
ready to- to give Israel the more than three and a half billion dollars
in aid it's annually given, they have added $ 400 million in housing
guarantees for Soviet refugees coming into to Israel. Why should the
United States maintain this extraordinary generosity when Mr. Shamir
responds to our requests not for new settlements on the West Bank by
constantly building new settlements on the West Bank?
AMB. ARAD: Well, I think that the U.S. aid to Israel derivates from a
basic consideration of its U.S. strategic needs and second from the
Israeli needs confronting an economy which it has to continue to absorb
over 100,000 Soviet Jews this year. And mostly by the need which Israel
confronts to continue to maintain its military guard against a number of
Arab countries like Iraq which is threatening --
BUCHANAN: Mr. Ambassador, that explains -- that explains 1.8 billion in
military aid. But we give something like an additional $ 1.8 billion
last year in economic aid.
AMB. ARAD: No. I think it's 1.2. And most of this is being returned to
the United States, repaying for former military debts that we received
from -- by loans that we got from the United States for the needs of
Israel coming out of the Camp David agreement and the peace agreement
with Egypt.
KINSLEY: Mr. Ambassador --
AMB. ARAD: We withdrew from Egypt, we had to rebuild the military
infrastructure inside Israel and therefore that's what the money is --
KINSLEY: Mr. Ambassador, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip for 20 years
approximately until 1967. Jordan controlled the West Bank. If -- if it
is so obviously just that there be a Palestinian state for the
Palestinians, why didn't you create one at that time when nothing was
stopping you?
AMB. EL-REEDY: Let us not talk about history. That question now is the
following, we can talk about history when we have more time in a
seminar. But right now we have -- we have a very dangerous phenomenon
that is happening. It is the only part in the world now where the
people are not responding to the winds of change. You have Eastern
Europe now, we're going for freedom. In South Africa, you have Mandela
being freed and so on. Why can't the Palestinian people in the West
Bank and Gaza be free and not to be ruled? The real problem is, let us
focus on the real problem, which -- which created the incidents and the
massacres of yesterday. The real problem is Israel's occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza and the refusal to allow these people to be free to
have their own --
AMB. ARAD: My colleague --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- to have self-determination and to have their own --
AMB. ARAD: I'm willing to accept that it's right --
BUCHANAN: All right, hold it.
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- and to be treated as human being, not as sub-human.
KINSLEY: Okay. Your turn.
AMB. ARAD: Well, I think that's totally incorrect, totally divorced from
reality. The real problem is that President Saddam Hussein is
threatening Israel with destruction, is amassing arms --
AMB. EL-REEDY: That is confusing the issue. I am sorry --
AMB. ARAD: It's not confusing the issue --
AMB. EL-REEDY: We are talking about --
AMB. ARAD: Excuse me, Ambassador.
BUCHANAN: Go ahead, Mr. --
AMB. ARAD: I'm sorry, Ambassador. You may not like what I say but I
think you should listen.
AMB. EL-REEDY: I'm listening. We know, but the issue is the
Palestinians --
AMB. ARAD: The problem cannot be resolved in separation from the overall
Israeli-Arab conflict. And as long as Arab countries like Iraq and like
Syria and Libya refuse to accept Israel's right to exist and they're
actually only waiting for Israel to move to the Arab borders, that's
what would --
KINSLEY: Go ahead, Mr. Ambassador.
AMB. EL-REEDY: All Arab countries, all Arab countries have accepted the
Security Council's Resolution 242. They have admitted, they are willing
to live with the state of Israel.
KINSLEY: Well, now, wait a minute --
AMB. EL-REEDY: There is no question about it. The point -- the point --
let us not confuse the issue of what happened yesterday. We are in here
discussing what happened yesterday, what happened yesterday and --
AMB. ARAD: And stop yesterday, Mr. Ambassador.
AMB. EL-REEDY: It can happen again. And the -- it is the result of a
policy of occupation --
KINSLEY: But, see, you just --
AMB. ARAD: Mr. Ambassador, what you are trying now to --
AMB. EL-REEDY: But you --
AMB. ARAD: -- the Israeli government the responsibility for the actions
of a deranged person --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- and through the negotiations of the Palestinians --
BUCHANAN: Let me ask you, Mr. Ambassador --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- and Israel --
BUCHANAN: -- a hard question. We read in The New York Times, I believe,
that Israel has given Egypt a guarantee that it will not strike Iraq
first or Libya or any Arab country. Is that true?
AMB. ARAD: Israel -- I'm not aware of any such commitment. I can tell
you --
BUCHANAN: Did you read about the story on that?
AMB. ARAD: I did read the story but let me clarify. Israel will not
initiate, has no interest to initiate any war in the Middle East. It is
on the course of trying to secure peace with its neighbors the same way
in which we secured peace with --
BUCHANAN: Let me ask you about one of those neighbors. Ethiopia. Why
are you giving cluster bombs and sending military advisers to a
Stalinist regime --
AMB. ARAD: It's a --
BUCHANAN: -- which is on the ropes?
AMB. ARAD: Israel did not supply cluster bombs. Ethiopia is not a
neighbor. But let me clarify one issue.
BUCHANAN: Are you giving -- are you giving military advice to the regime
of Colonel Mengistu --
AMB. ARAD: We have not given any military supplies. We have
reestablished diplomatic relations with Ethiopia. The main interest
with Israel has in reestablishing diplomatic relations with Ethiopia is
the release and the immigration of Ethiopian Jews. The first time ever
that black people came out from Africa to liberty to --
BUCHANAN: I know, but right now -- hold it. Right now, a Stalinist
regime is on the ropes and I just read in the Washington Times, I got
it, there are reports that you got military advisers in there, that
you've given them cluster bombs, that you're advising the Ethiopian army
in its final days.
AMB. ARAD: I can categorically tell you that we did not supply any
cluster bombs and we don't have any --
BUCHANAN: Any weapons? No weapons?
AMB. ARAD: -- military advisers.
BUCHANAN: No weapons either?
AMB. ARAD: As far as I know, to the best of our -- maybe some light
weapons. No military advisers and no military presence, Israeli
military presence and no cluster bombs.
KINSLEY: Mr. El-Reedy, you know, speaking of friends, people's friends,
your country is very close to Iraq and the Israeli Ambassador asks why
can they really count on peace with the Arabs while a country like this
is around a country that just last week hanged a Western journalist that
was caught smuggling nuclear mechanisms into their country?
AMB. EL-REEDY: Iraq has accepted -- has accepted the non-proliferation
treaty. Let us not forget that. Iraq has accepted commitments legally,
is committed to -- not to produce nuclear weapons --
KINSLEY: You don't --
AMB. EL-REEDY: And when --
AMB. ARAD: This agreement with Israel --
AMB. EL-REEDY: Israel attacked Iraq in 1981. It was an act -- a
premeditated attack against Iraq in 1981. The whole --
AMB. ARAD: Iraq had attacked --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- United Nations, the Security Council, the Security
Council --
KINSLEY: Iraq --
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- international --
AMB. ARAD: -- since 1948.
AMB. EL-REEDY: We are --
AMB. ARAD: And Iraq sent troops --
KINSLEY: All right --
AMB. ARAD: Iraqi troops --
KINSLEY: Excuse me. All right. Ten more seconds for you and then a
little bit for you.
AMB. EL-REEDY: Non-proliferation treaty. And is bound by it. And we
have proposed the creation of a zone in the whole of the Middle East
free from nuclear weapons, from -- from chemical weapons, from all
weapons and Iraq has accepted that --
AMB. ARAD: So that --
KINSLEY: Stop --
AMB. EL-REEDY: Israel has not accepted --
KINSLEY: Stop. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You'll get a chance.
I'm learning how hard it is to negotiate in the Middle East. We'll give
Ambassador Arad a chance to respond when we come back.
[Commercial break]
KINSLEY: Mr. Arad, you were going to explain to us very briefly why you
don't care to trust Iraq quite yet.
AMB. ARAD: I don't care to trust Iraq because Iraq has invaded Israel
upon the establishment of its independence. Iraq has continued to send
forces in the wars against Israel. Iraq has threatened to destroy
Israel just -- the president threatened to destroy Israel just a few
weeks ago. And it's a country which is on the verge of establishing,
trying to establish its leadership all over the Arab world and calling
for a war against Israel.
KINSLEY: All right. Mr. El-Reedy, the U.S. peace plan in the Middle
East which you accused the Israelis of holding off on was premised on
the idea that Arafat, Yasser Arafat had renounced the use of terror.
But he now says, or the PLO now says, all actions against Israel is
justified. Doesn't that undermine the basic precondition of peace
talks?
AMB. EL-REEDY: During the last two and a half years, the Palestinians
have been- have been asking for their right to self-determination and to
end occupation and Arafat and the PLO has accepted that. And Arafat has
supported and encouraged moderation. And as you know, Arafat and the
PLO in 1988 they declared accepting to live side by side with Israel,
accepted Security Council 242 --
KINSLEY: But now they say, all action against Israel is justified.
AMB. EL-REEDY: They have -- they have been faithful to the commitments
to which- which they have made. And let us -- let us sum again the
question. The question is Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza
--
BUCHANAN: That's what I want to bring up.
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- and the refusal to negotiate with the Palestinians.
BUCHANAN: Hold it --
AMB. EL-REEDY: Let us --
BUCHANAN: Ambassador, the final question is for you.
AMB. ARAD: Mr. Arafat has been very faithful to what he committed and
this is why over 200 Palestinians were killed by Palestinians because
these 200 Palestinians killed by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza
were Palestinians who indicated their wish and their willingness --
AMB. EL-REEDY: This is propaganda -- I'm sorry to tell you --
AMB. ARAD: These are the facts --
KINSLEY: All right. Excuse me, gentlemen. Excuse me, gentlemen. We're
out of- excuse me, gentlemen, we're out of time.
AMB. EL-REEDY: -- not Palestinian aggressor --
AMB. ARAD: The renouncement by -- by Mr. Arafat --
KINSLEY: Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you, Ambassador
Arad. Thank you, Ambassador, El-Reedy. Pat and I will be back in a
moment.
[Commercial break]
BUCHANAN: Michael, certainly you can't blame Israel for the act of that
single deranged ex-soldier. But don't you think given all the suffering
the Palestinian people have endured, they have earned the right to be
free and independent?
KINSLEY: I tend to think so. Of course, they've endured suffering not
just at the hands of Israel but at the hands of the Arab nations for
decades and decades. And this Palestinian nationalism is actually quite
recent. And that is why the Israelis are suspicious of it with some
good reason. From the left, I'm Mike Kinsley. Good night for
Crossfire.
BUCHANAN: From the right, Pat Buchanan. Join us tomorrow night for
another edition of Crossfire.
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